Curse

PieXags · Sep 06, 2005, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Alright, I'm bored of this game. Looking for odd builds. All of them dealing with a necro primary, while I was going to venture out and find the greatest necro/warrior build ever, I realized that that wasn't going to go anywhere, so I decided...Necro Ranger! I always got killed as a N/W because, I was a goddam warrior! A necro isn't meant to get his ass handed to him because everyone wants to kill the necro. Always the necro, as a necro/warrior I always got my ass handed to me first, everyone just said "Hey, necro! Kick his ass!"

So I decided for some...long range.

A N/R. Does anyone have a good build for a N/R? I guess I'm just trying to go for high damage output. I was thinking of upping wilderness, marksmanship, and curses. Things like weaken armor, mark of pain, to take advantage of the physical damage of arrows. I figured mark of pain + barrage would be a good bit for some area damage. Only problem is, well you don't get that many oppurtunities for that and I hate being dependant on situations.

So I thought, perhaps blood magic? Order of Pain? Seems to me a kindle arrows + order of pain could make for some fairly decent damage, the only problem with that is the health cost. Otherwise it'd be damn nice.

So tell me, what are your thoughts, and if possible what builds do you have for me to try? I'd like to stray away from beast mastery if at all possible, because I really hate having that line pumped up for a few more seconds of 33% faster attack or something.

smurfhunter · Sep 06, 2005, 10:07 PM // 22:07

if you mean a N/R with a bow, id say bad idea. expertise > soul reaping in this case, and i seriously doubt you will need > 12 of any necro attribs if you plan to be your own order spammer/bow attacker.

most N/R are just standard necros with frozen soil. usually given to the necro because everyone already has a secondary they cant switch out (like common examples - w/r (they can but its slow and i dont really like that idea), emo, mo/me, me/n, w/me (blackout), etc.)

necros in most simple smite groups are like an extra crowbar, you use them only because you dont feel like smashing the door open everytime. they make life easier.

PieXags · Sep 06, 2005, 10:15 PM // 22:15

See that's just it I'm not concerned that a ranger primary is somewhat stronger than a N/R, I'm not concerned about that. I already have a ranger with a high damage output.

I'm just looking for a basic combination I could use as a N/R for a relatively high damage output, from there I'll improvise.

Cymmina · Sep 06, 2005, 11:22 PM // 23:22

The problem with being anything with a ranger secondary is the lack of expertise, as the other poster stated (which you should already know if you play a ranger primary). Bow attacks are simply too expensive (10+ energy per attack, on average) to sustain without that energy cost reduction. You would be better off with warrior or elementalist secondary if what you want is damage.

There are more subtle ways to make use of a ranger secondary, though. Marksman's Wager+Spinal Shivers and an icy bowstring is one option. Another would make use of all of those nifty spells that cause conditions on yourself with Melandru's Resilience. Imagine how quickly you could tear through a pack of guys with Mark of Pain+Tiger's Fury (you don't need that much BM to be effective, either).

I should also point out that no one expects a necro to do any damage. They are a support character: the best AoE debuffer in the game and king of the meat shields.

Effigy · Sep 06, 2005, 11:44 PM // 23:44

I know why you want to do this....Necros look cool.

The problem is, the character is practically guaranteed to be subpar. Like the others have said, bow skills are too expensive to use much without Expertise. You won't have as much armor as a Ranger. You can't get your Marks over 12. You can't use any Marks-linked skills. You didn't mention planning to invest in Soul Reaping. Hence, the only possible reason you'd want to be a Necro is for the appearance.

If you're really that determined to make an inferior Ranger that looks like a Necro, go for it. The only fun in the game is what you make of it. But, you have to understand that "good" is a relative term. Thus, I doubt that there is such a thing as a "good" bow-using N/R build, because it would always be weaker than a R/N by comparison (barring some kind of bizarre build I can't imagine). In the end, it's up to you. Take it and accept the failings, make a R/N, or just make some other kind of Necro. :/

neoflame · Sep 06, 2005, 11:48 PM // 23:48

If you really are determined to run an inferior build, why do you need to ask for superior skills?

carnivore · Sep 06, 2005, 11:55 PM // 23:55

if you wanna be a secondary ranger with a bow i'd say go e/r, then energy storage>expertise, or atleast comparable but if you must have a n/r i'd try to be the most super anoying person on the field. so hexes and conditions galore

smurfhunter · Sep 07, 2005, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnivore

if you wanna be a secondary ranger with a bow i'd say go e/r, then energy storage>expertise, or atleast comparable but if you must have a n/r i'd try to be the most super anoying person on the field. so hexes and conditions galore

i think alot of energy and 4 pips would probably equal alot of expertise and 3 pips, (for ranger skills), but you would miss out on the armor, and alot of expertise based skills. so overall, im not sure if that a good idea either

PieXags · Sep 07, 2005, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Boy you people sure don't like to think outside the box, here I am trying to make an interesting build and all I get is people calling it "inferior" without even trying it.

Anyway, since you guys aren't any help at all here are a few things I've been tossing around. The idea isn't to use very many bow "attacks" I might carry one and that's about it.

The idea is to make each arrow hit for as much damage as possible. I'm thinking preparations and enchantments.

Lets say for example I slap order of pain on and fire off 2 shots of barrage, lets say each arrow in itself does 10-15 damage, along with the 15+ damage from order of pain. Would that stack? and then you'd have two onslaughts of arrows hitting for 30+ on an area for only 20 energy, that's not too damn bad if you think about it. Hell other than that, you could slap something like kindle arrows together with order of pain and make for roughly 45 damage per arrow. That's about as much if not the same as your typical R/E with conjure fire and kindle. Or I could have my elite as poison arrow, and have the same kindle + order or pain along with constant poison on the target, another decent set. I could even drop a spirit here or there to up the damage even more. I'm going to have to try a few of these ideas...

The experiment continues! And something that's more, want to know why the hell I think it'll work?

Who in their right mind would go after a N/R? In all the battles I've been in so far, everyone's like "Yeah screw that dumbass and his shitty combo, he's no threat". Also the necro has the best armor of all the casters, with 70AC armor (sure it's less against smiting, but who the hell runs up and smites a N/R?)

I'll test out my ideas and let all you negative people know how it goes.

*After looking over things, seems the definition for a few skills is different from the site than in-game, order of pain then might not stack over kindle arrows or something of the sort. Going to test the barrage idea thing.*

carnivore · Sep 07, 2005, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

i think alot of energy and 4 pips would probably equal alot of expertise and 3 pips, (for ranger skills), but you would miss out on the armor, and alot of expertise based skills. so overall, im not sure if that a good idea either

i wouldnt say you miss out on armor, if you really wanted armor you easily go water/earth and use an armor spell.

anyway as for n/r you can easily slap it together for fun but then asking for a way to better than a normal necro or a normal ranger is defeating the purpose of a fun build

delfin42 · Sep 07, 2005, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

The idea is to make each arrow hit for as much damage as possible. I'm thinking preparations and enchantments.

Which won't be as efficient as if you'd gone R/N. If you're going to sling arrows, go Ranger all the way or not at all.

Now, N/R _can_ be the basis for a very entertaining PvE Necro minion build:

Verata's Sacrifice
Blood of the Master
Animate Bone Fiends
Animate Bone Horror
Healing Spring
Serpent's Quickness
Favorable Winds
Soul Feast/Taste of Death/Grenth's Balance/Res Signet

using 16 Death and pumping up Wilderness Survival and Soul Reaping, with a couple of spare points going into Marksmanship for Favorable Winds.

Reaping provides the energy to keep the Animates coming. Verata's Sacrifice and Blood of the Master help keep your critters alive, Healing Spring helps keep them _and_ you alive (more so when they run back to you at the end of a combat than during combat), and the 8-slot is an extra heal source if you don't take a Sig. Serpent's Quickness makes all of your skills recharge faster, letting you get off more Verata's Sacrifices. Favorable Winds adds damage to the darts your Fiends fling.

Go into an area with lots of fleshy creatures and watch your army grow.

kyeo138 · Sep 07, 2005, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Hey Pie, I actually just brought a N/R through the entire PvE part of the game. I haven't been TOO successful with it in arenas yet. But here's something that I think might yield a decent build.

Something like:
9 Wilderness
9 Marksmanship
Whatever's left into Blood & curses (maybe a few pts into soul reaping)

Try to work in as much Condition/Hex degen as possible. The problem with this is that Martyr will rock you. In 4v4 though, condition removal isn't as prevalent.

Melandru's Arrows [E]
life siphon
barbed trap
well of suffering
rotting flesh
suffering
parasitic bond
vampiric gaze

Another problem is the long cast times... but you can keep stacking stuff up pretty quickly.

rii · Sep 07, 2005, 08:16 PM // 20:16

would predatory season be an effective buff for minions? Im not sure what affects them and what doesnt, but being a nature ritual, surely it affects everything? Not sure how much 5 health per 1.33s is going to help :/

neoflame · Sep 07, 2005, 09:04 PM // 21:04

You probably can't use Kindle with Order of Pain because Kindle seems to change your arrows to fire damage. You can't really use Orders with an intention to use them as personal buffs because it slaughters the number of attacks you can make. You can't use Barrage with preparations. You won't really have the energy to run Barrage constantly, especially if you intend to do anything else (read: Orders). No Ranger runes means your damage per arrow will be inferior to that of a similarly built primary Ranger's.

PieXags · Sep 07, 2005, 09:43 PM // 21:43

While I'd like to sit here and bitch about how everyone refers to it as "inferior" I'm going to continue the frame of mind that all secondaries can be made to work damn well, there are other benefits to this combination that I'm sure will override the "basic arrow damage" that you'd have a slight bit higher as a ranger primary with marksmanship up above 12. Lets put it this way, when I get this N/R finished, I do by all means intend to take him head to head with ranger primaries. Unless they're playing part caster as well (which in that sense would be inferior to me, who will also be able to bring along a few spells on the side, and also I'll have an easier time healing myself), I have a feeling it'll turn out how I want it to. Trying to get some more goddam skill points as to finish it up, and will let you all know the results.

entropy · Sep 07, 2005, 10:44 PM // 22:44

go necro with a bit of wild thats about it or even beastmastery with some soul reaping and curses

delfin42 · Sep 08, 2005, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

While I'd like to sit here and bitch about how everyone refers to it as "inferior" I'm going to continue the frame of mind that all secondaries can be made to work damn well, there are other benefits to this combination that I'm sure will override the "basic arrow damage" that you'd have a slight bit higher as a ranger primary with marksmanship up above 12.

It's not that N/R is inferior _in and of itself_, it's that a primary Ranger will always be more effective with Ranger bow skills than a Ranger secondary. That's just the nature of Rangers.

One word: Expertise. A Ranger with high Expertise can use his arsenal of shot skills non-stop without worrying about Energy concerns. A N/R can't do that. Without Expertise, useful stances like Lightning Reflexes and Whirling Defense are gimped. Marksman's Wager is gimped. Oath Shot misses 50% of the time. Your shots are using the full 5-10 Energy instead of 2-4. You can't spam Barrage or Quick Shot without draining yourself dry rapidly. And where will you get the energy for often-expensive Necro skills?

Now, figure in preparations like Ignite Arrows and Apply Poison as an equalizer. Not only will they cost more (no Expertise) than for a primary Ranger, but if you're pumping up both Marksmanship _and_ Wilderness Survival, how many attribute points does that leave for your primary attributes? Can you pump up Marks, Wilds, Reaping _and_ Blood/Death/Curses and have enough points in any of them to make the build truly effective?

There are definitely ways to use N and R together effectively. I posted a Death-Reaping-Wilderness build earlier in this thread, for instance. If you pump up Wilderness Survival, you get heals (Healing Spring, Troll Unguent), stances (Serpent's Quickness for faster recharges, Melandru's Resilience to get something positive out of Conditions, Storm Chaser for speed), spirits (Winnowing to make Fiends and Horrors do more damage, Frozen Soil), an interrupt (Choking Gas) and traps for close-in defense. Surely you can dig something useful out of all of those. Troll Unguent + Dark Pact. Minions + Healing Spring. Use your imagination.

Spura · Sep 08, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57

6 expertise covers 1 energy regen of difference. Anything past that makes ranger primary better off energy-wise as far as non-spell things go.

smurfhunter · Sep 08, 2005, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

While I'd like to sit here and bitch about how everyone refers to it as "inferior" I'm going to continue the frame of mind that all secondaries can be made to work damn well, there are other benefits to this combination that I'm sure will override the "basic arrow damage" that you'd have a slight bit higher as a ranger primary with marksmanship up above 12. Lets put it this way, when I get this N/R finished, I do by all means intend to take him head to head with ranger primaries. Unless they're playing part caster as well (which in that sense would be inferior to me, who will also be able to bring along a few spells on the side, and also I'll have an easier time healing myself), I have a feeling it'll turn out how I want it to. Trying to get some more goddam skill points as to finish it up, and will let you all know the results.

excellant

dont forget to tell us how it goes, im pretty interested

PieXags · Sep 09, 2005, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Alright people here's what I've got right now for me attributes...

Blood Magic: 12
Wilderness Survival: 10
Marksmanship: 12

Now some of you are problably saying "WTF he's a primary necro and doesn't even pump his necro attribute up +12?!" Well yeah screw that. Anyway, as of right now I'm running something like...

Barrage {E}
Kindle Arrows
Order of Pain
Vampiric Gaze
Shadow Strike
Troll Unguent
Uh...some other shit I can't remember.
Rez Signet (always bring it)

Order + Kindle does in fact work, because I guess the fire damage from kindles is added after the physical damage from the bow. Order also works with barrage, and you can get off two barrage shots while under order. The only problem I'm having right now is order of pain, it's way to short. If it had say, a 10 second duration, it'd be a much bigger help. So right now it's just kinda little bit of everything.

I think what I'm going to try after this...now that Anet's been so kind as to remove attribute refunds, is to turn it into the biggest condition spreading bastard around. Sure a ranger has poison, but the necro's got something better. Disease, me be thinking melandru's arrows and some disease thingy, along with say...crippling shot thingy majiger, kindle arrows maybe as another buff thingy, then maybe...concussion shot thingy, and uh...something else.

It's gonna rock YO!